The Mostly Real Estate Podcast, with Declan Spring

#56 - Kerri Naslund-Monday - Navigating the Four Punches to the Inner East Bay Condo Market

• Declan Spring

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Kerri Naslund-Monday returns to discuss the struggling Inner East Bay condo market, revealing how properties have lost a decade of appreciation.

The Inner East Bay condo market has experienced what Kerri calls "four punches" that have seen demand and values decline. Properties that once commanded premium prices are now selling at levels not seen since 2014 — or in some cases, 2007. This represents a reversal of fortune that's reshaping the market landscape.

Declan and Kerri dissect these market-altering forces: COVID's devastating impact on shared living spaces, skyrocketing interest rates impacting affordability, California's new balcony inspection requirements triggering special assessments, and an insurance crisis driving HOA fees to unprecedented heights. Together, these factors have created a perfect storm for condo owners while simultaneously opening doors for strategic buyers.

The conversation doesn't just diagnose problems — it illuminates paths forward. For sellers, understanding the realistic timeline for market recovery is crucial for making informed decisions. For buyers, learning how to properly evaluate a condo complex's inspection status, insurance situation, and HOA finances can reveal value opportunities. And for real estate professionals, this challenging market segment offers a chance to build expertise and relationships that will pay dividends when the inevitable recovery arrives.

Whether you're a property owner facing tough decisions, a potential buyer seeking value, or an agent navigating a difficult market, this episode provides the context, data, and strategies needed to make confident choices in uncertain times. Listen now and discover how today's challenges might be tomorrow's opportunities.

Kerri Naslund-Monday is a licensed CA REALTOR® DRE#01759031

Declan Spring is a licensed CA REALTOR® DRE#01398898

Declan:

This is Declan Spring and welcome to the Mostly Real Estate Podcast. My guest this week for a conversation about the inner East Bay condo market is Carrie Naslin-Monday. Carrie's been working East Bay Real Estate for a couple of decades. She has a good-sized team at Keller Williams that she manages with Grace, and to learn more about Carrie, her story, the value she brings to the market, you can just go back to episode 47 with me from mid-March when she and I had a great conversation stretching back to the beginning of her career.

Declan:

Today's episode is kind of a bird's eye view of the condo market here in the inner east bay. You know, most of the time when you hear stories from the real estate market, we're generally speaking about single-family homes, and so the condo market often gets overlooked in the general conversation. I wanted today to be specifically about the condo market because most realtors already know that we've seen problems in the condo market. A drop in values, lower demand, longer days on market and just a few minutes of research in the multiple listing service provides all the evidence you need to back up the claim that, yes, the condo market has seen better days. So why is that? How did we get from sunny days to where we are now, and do the clouds that have rolled in hold any silver linings? Well, carrie handles a lot of condos, and so she was my first choice for this conversation, and I'm deeply grateful that she'd take the time to sit with me, share her opinions and her expertise and her stories.

Declan:

And so here's my conversation with Kerry Naslin-Monday. I'm Kerry, thank you so much for coming in again. You were here fairly recently, yes, and we heard an awful lot about your past, your past and your. You know how you got into the industry and all that. So that was really really it was really cool and I really enjoyed getting to know you, and a good thing I did, because after getting to know you a little, I realized you know I was.

Declan:

I was thinking I was thinking during this week, for some reason, I've had several people reach out because they want, you know, help with listing a condo, and here's what's happened for me this year. I've had some terrific success for a few buyers with condos, where I've been hopefully making sure they're fully informed going into the situation. But as you know, as most realtors know, the condo market's taken a bit of a hit in the last several years, and so I had opportunities for buyers as long as the plan is carefully executed. But when people start reaching out to sell condos I realize, oh crap, this is difficult, it's not good.

Declan:

Right, it's not an easy thing and you and your team, you know you're handling a lot of condos, so I thought I'm going to reach out to Carrie and get your insight. I have some data, obviously, yeah, but even in discussing the data with you, you corrected me very, very quickly. Let me explain to the audience what? Well, first of all, carrie, thank you, yeah, very quickly, let me explain to the audience what well?

Kerri:

first of all, Carrie, thank you. Yeah, no problem, and yes, you are correct. The condo market is suffering right now and there's different ways to look at it. You know, this could be a market correction. This could also just be a story of a certain subset of our market getting beat up on, and I have a narrative around that that I speak with my clients about. But it's rough stuff right now for sellers.

Kerri:

We have a huge amount of inventory and I think the audience just isn't there as far as buyers anymore and, as you had said earlier, that could mean some opportunity too.

Declan:

Yeah, because I don't want to just be a Debbie Downer when it comes to the condo market here. Obviously, when we talk about the condo market taking a hit, that's for folks who own condos and have watched values decline. But that obviously means an opportunity for some buyers, as I said, as long as they do it carefully and we provide the right information. So here's what I loved you telling me just when we got ready to sit down here. You know me, I was going through some of the data during the last few days trying to see what angle I could come at this from, because obviously we have several big cities here. When we say East Bay, like what does that mean?

Declan:

I typically go to look at data in Oakland and Berkeley and Richmond, seeing as there are, you know, our biggest cities most heavily densely populated, and so when I looked at those three cities and Emeryville and Albany, what I did was I just looked at March and April every year 2022, 2023, 2024, and this year just, but just those two months and, as you know, there's not a lot of units in a two-month period. So your data points are. It's difficult, but a picture emerged that clearly and we can demonstrate it's in here in the data, in that four-year period 22 to 25, there have been declines in the value of condos in Oakland and definitely in Richmond. Berkeley seems to, as it did during the recession, seems to be doing a lot better. It's holding value better than Oakland and Richmond, but there's still been some decline in Berkeley. But here's the thing that I liked you saying when you walked in here today to talk about this, you said but Declan, you're just looking at the last few years. You said you have to understand. We're talking about 10 years.

Declan:

Like we're talking about properties having, you know, fallen behind, back to values that they had 10 years ago.

Kerri:

We've lost a decade's worth of appreciation. If you're looking at the value decline and where those average values are sitting now, if you go back 10 years and see what the units were selling for in the same communities a decade ago and this isn't for everything, of course each city has its own, but especially in Oakland you'll see 10 years ago prices are happening right now. They lost 10 years worth of value and the big question is why.

Declan:

Well, why, exactly why? And so it is here in the data. It's quite evident. Then, anecdotally, you're dealing with a lot of clients as well. You're talking to buyers, you're talking to sellers. You're having those really difficult conversations and you had four punches. You call them. When we sat down here together, I said I've got four punches for you to describe what's gone on in our East Bay probably the Bay Area condo market, but let's say East Bay condo market. So let's go through the four punches. Yeah, the first punch. I don't know if we have them in the same order, but you said the first punch was COVID, correct? Why was COVID the first punch? Because property values went up and you know, in general, for single family homes 2021. I mean, rates were down. So why did you say COVID is the first punch to the condo market?

Kerri:

Because you have to consider what the audience is looking for, and during COVID our audience was not looking for shared spaces. They weren't looking for a mail room where they're going to come in contact with other people. They're not looking to be in an elevator with other folks. But even in the condos that don't necessarily have those things that are shared, the amenities that the condos offer oftentimes it's a gym or a workout room, a sauna, a hot tub, a pool those were all closed down too. So they were paying HOA fees for things that they couldn't even use. So that became less of a value add and so the audience disappeared. With that first punch of COVID we weren't having people say you know what sounds like a good idea right now? A condo. That just didn't happen.

Declan:

That makes so much sense and until you told me then I had to kind of reach back into my data and I think every realtor I used to get a kick out of asking agents in 2021, are you having your best year ever? Because I knew their answer would be yes, I am. And even I had. It was a ridiculous year. We were all just sprinting, but I didn't sell any condos. I didn't notice that until you just brought it up here today.

Kerri:

Yeah, nobody was coming in and saying show me a bunch of condos.

Declan:

That sounds like the plan right now Backyards. It was all about the backyard space.

Kerri:

Yeah, and moving to the hills, everybody moved away from the walkable because the walkable wasn't open. They moved up to the hills, to nature, because nature is medicine nature was the thing.

Declan:

So that was our first punch for condos and it just makes perfect sense. Okay, now your second punch. Yeah, and this affected everything. Obviously, when those rates went from somewhere around april, the end of april, may, from below 3%, by September they were up to almost 8%. Yeah, yeah, that affected everybody.

Kerri:

Affordability.

Declan:

Affordability. But so now condos are hit again.

Kerri:

Second gut punch that was the second punch, because then it didn't pencil out. As Historically condos have been kind of the baby step towards home ownership. It is the affordable rental alternative for people who aren't ready to take the full commitment on of a single family home interest rate. More than doubling that monthly payment took a hit to the point that it was no longer an affordable alternative to renting. And so that was the second punch.

Declan:

Yeah, Two punches back to back. So one of them happened with COVID. Then end of 2022, you have punch two. Then end of 2022, you have punch two. And then you said our third punch to the gut was SB 326, which is this requirement for all, I guess, condo buildings to have balcony or deck inspections, right.

Kerri:

Correct and that's for all of California and that spans back in history to a balcony collapse that happened in Berkeley, locally. Here, with a bunch of students were all on the balcony, it collapsed, there were lives lost and because of that, the state of California stepped in and that ordinance went into effect, or that bill went into effect January, january 1st. And so now all of these condo complexes.

Declan:

January 1st 2025.

Kerri:

2025 correct yes, so all of these condo complexes are now being inspected, and the age stock of a majority of these complexes around this area are such that they're not they're not inspecting out too well, and and so, because of that, they're having to update or rebuild a lot of these balconies, and so what's happening is the owners are getting hit with special assessments.

Declan:

Right Now. For folks who don't understand what a special assessment is, let me see if I could just describe it really quickly. So, generally speaking, you're paying your HOA dues and in the East Bay, for a two bedroom condo, that can be anywhere from $600 to $900, more or less. So you're paying your dues every month and the HOA has their reserves and they're using the reserves and applying money towards projects and maintaining things over a period of years. But then all of a sudden something occurs or some maintenance or construction defect or something pops up and there just isn't a reserve for it. So what's required is a special assessment.

Declan:

Oh, by the way, monthly homeowner association dues are properly called monthly assessments, but when you don't have enough in the reserve for a big, immediate problem, every condo owner is required to chip in, and often thousands of dollars at one time, right, to make sure that they have the cost. So what you're saying is these balconies and decks are being inspected now for safety. It's being discovered by and large in many complexes that they're just not ready Right and they need work. Yep, and now there's a project cost, but it's not in the reserves. Nobody ever expected this cost.

Kerri:

Yeah.

Declan:

And now you have a special assessment right.

Kerri:

But it also affects the future buyer, because the current owners are having conversations with their friends and their families complaining about this giant assessment they just got hit with, and so that news trickles out. But in addition to that, the lenders are not able to provide financing when there's projects underway that have health and safety issues, and if a balcony is being worked on, that's, in the lender's eyes, a health and safety issue, and they're not lending on those units, so that's causing financing issues as well, and so those things put together are making the buyers say, yeah, that doesn't sound like a good plan either.

Declan:

Okay, yeah. So news of special assessments trickling into the consumer area and people are hearing horror stories and I don't want to buy a condo. I'm hearing terrible things about special assessments, but then we have this financing problem as well. Correct, it's real, wow Okay. So that really is a third punch, wow Okay.

Kerri:

But that wasn't enough.

Declan:

If that wasn't enough, you gave me a fourth gut punch for the condo market insurance.

Kerri:

So let's talk about insurance and why. That is the fourth gut punch. Well, insurance is a problem in all of California right now. All of the major carriers well, a majority of them have dropped out and because of that there are a lot of B paper insurance groups that are charging two, three times the amount that we have been used to. But these condo complexes have had insurance policies with these larger companies that have gone on for years and years and years. But these large handlers are dropping the entire complexes and so the complexes have to go out, find a new carrier and, just like with single family home owners, the new policy charges are, you know, sometimes 3 or 4x what they had previously been used to, and so guess what that does.

Declan:

That pushes up your homeowners monthly assessment, your monthly dues.

Kerri:

HOA fee goes up Right and furthering the problem of affordability.

Declan:

Yeah.

Kerri:

Yeah.

Declan:

Okay, so now you have the rates affecting affordability and then the HOA dues going up because of insurance pressures, correct. You have another affordability problem. For people who don't own a condo or thinking about it as a condo owner, you would need to have insurance of your own, but just for the walls inside the condo, for the space inside the condo. The condo complex itself carries a master policy, and that's what we're talking about here. Is that master policy for the complex which is covered by people's monthly assessments, their HOA dues? So, yes, so these HOA. So it's interesting. I was looking at data for several places, but I kind of just hovered over one of the bigger buildings in Albany just to kind of look at where the HOA dues were four years ago, where they are now, and it looks like they've gone up $200 over four years, which isn't unheard of. That's the kind of thing we've been seeing because of this pressure from and higher insurance costs.

Kerri:

I know the building that you looked at, the one right next door. We have five units for sale in that one. The one next door. In that same time period they've had HOA dues increase by over 380.

Declan:

Right.

Kerri:

That's dramatic.

Declan:

It is dramatic, you know. So again, you know, taking advantage of an opportunity in the condo market as a buyer requires that you recognize that some of these problems won't go away. Yeah, anecdotally, just what are the kinds of stories? We looked at cancellations as well, you and I. Yeah, and we just looked in because we know supply has gone up.

Kerri:

Yeah.

Declan:

And one way of looking at that I thought was well, let's look at cancellations. And so I just looked at Oakland, berkeley and Richmond for all cancellations, real quick, and in 2022, all year there were 329 cancellations. Now those are properties that may have come back on the market. You know, things cancel and come back, but there were 329. In 2024, there were 437. So that speaks not just to the number of cancellations but also the supply, and so you would be closer to this than me. You're seeing this increase in supply, so you're handling five units in one building in Albany, right?

Kerri:

Absolutely.

Declan:

So you're seeing a lot of supply.

Kerri:

Come in, we're seeing a lot of supply and you're seeing a lot of supply come in. We're seeing a lot of supply and we're seeing a lot of sellers getting frustrated because they're holding on to that 2021 dream. You know, oh, that other unit, just you know, two doors down sold for X amount. And unfortunately, the conversation then turns into okay, well, we've got choices here, and those choices are to sell at a paper loss because they never had that money in their hand. It's a paper loss, right? But, it still stings.

Declan:

Right, that's why, well, that's why we call it a gut punch as well.

Kerri:

You know it does it stings. So that's one of their choices is to take a loss if they're trying to exit the property or A perceived loss.

Declan:

Yes, correct.

Kerri:

Or they can wait around and rent it out and wait for the market to come back and revive itself. If you think about the perceived losses and go in and just take a very conservative appreciation rate which in condos, if you look back over a long period of time, we don't usually see appreciation rates of over three to four percent, but let's just say conservatively at a two percent rate it is going to take them another 7 to 10 years to gain back that perceived loss. So when they're saying, oh, I'm just going to rent for a couple years and wait for the market to come back, that's a wish.

Declan:

It's a bit of a wish.

Kerri:

Well, the conversation needs to turn into okay. Well, it's going to be a few more than a couple years if the market recovery has, you know, a conservative to healthy appreciation rate. Right, yeah, climb back.

Declan:

Right. So this kind of notion of a two oh, I'll rent for two to three years it really needs to be. You need to drill down on why two years, why three years? What's informing you that that's the period of time? Let's talk about this in a realistic way. Maybe you should be thinking 10 years. Maybe a two percent a year for 10 years. Maybe you'll get to where you feel your perceived loss is right. These are these are hard conversations.

Kerri:

Right, and in addition to that, up until it was March of 2024, as a single family unit owner, if you did want to, let's just say they waited those two to three years. They got some of their money back and they're saying, okay, now's the time, now's the time we're going to put it back on the market. Well, you can't just simply ask your tenant to leave because you want to sell anymore in the state of California. Right, and that's for any size unit. Before it used to be, you know, for single family homes were exempt from that or duplexes and triplexes that had an owner occupant in one of the units.

Kerri:

But, that has all changed, and it's not just Bay Area specific. I know that Bay Area has a lot more tenant friendly rules like that, but California has picked that up and so because of that they, by renting, they're losing control of their asset and so they can't simply just flip the switch and say, okay, I'm going to go back to selling now. They need to wait out that tenancy, even if a lease ends. In some of these cities that we're focusing on, a lease ending is not the end of the tenancy. It then automatically turns into month to month as long as the tenant wants to stay and pay.

Declan:

Right. And so because oftentimes people there's a we have rent control, which sure you might be exempt from in certain situations, but we have eviction control, I think. I think people get confused between the two because we only ever hear rent control, rent control, but the eviction control thing yeah is what you're speaking to here is that's the important thing.

Declan:

There's no exemptions from that. Yeah, you're absolutely right, you, you can't just use uh, some folks rent your place as like a bookmark till you're ready to turn the next chapter and sell. You know, sell the unit at your discretion.

Kerri:

It's not simple like that. It's not simple like that?

Declan:

No, you get stuck for a long period of time.

Kerri:

Correct. So, with these sellers, they just need to choose. Yeah, choose their heart.

Declan:

Yeah, yeah it's you know, it is that perceived sense of a loss, though.

Kerri:

Sure.

Declan:

That's where people really do struggle, isn't it All?

Kerri:

the time.

Declan:

They might be coming out ahead, but they could have come out ahead so much more three years ago. I know that's really hard for people, isn't it?

Kerri:

Their crystal ball didn't work back then and tell them to sell now, sell now.

Declan:

Yeah, didn't work back then and tell them to sell now. Sell now, yeah. But of course you know the thing is, when things were back three years ago, if you were going to, you know, use that money to buy something else, your purchase was going to be higher too. I mean, you know it's, it's it's never perfect.

Kerri:

I'm not sure if three years ago is even the magic number. I think it's 2019 is is truly where we're looking at as far as wanting the time machine to take us back.

Declan:

Right. Yeah, I think you're right. I actually I agree with you wholeheartedly. Yeah, I do. Even in the early 2020, before you know the March lockdown, we kind of knew the winds of change.

Declan:

Yeah, it was there, right? You know, in February 2020, it was like I remember reaching around to my colleagues going winds have shifted direction, haven't they? Yeah? And then we had the lockdown. Everything turned upside down but, yeah, it was changing. So, but let's, you know, let's look at some of these, let's look at these four gut punches and try and work our way through. You know, where are we with some of these? Okay, so COVID's gone. More obviously, I don't want to be insensitive.

Kerri:

COVID is not influencing people's buying decisions anymore.

Declan:

There you go.

Kerri:

Beautifully put.

Declan:

So that's taken off the table and it's no longer impacting us. Now I'll get into rates and insurance, but let's the other one that it seems to me is An easier conversation is the balcony especially. You know balcony inspections and special assessments. That's got a. That's just got a fairly short shelf life.

Kerri:

It must right Nine years.

Declan:

Yeah, I mean the inspections are happening now. So if there are special assessments, that's all going to happen. They're all getting hit right now and then everyone can take a breath afterwards.

Kerri:

And so I think that the message here, and I think what you're going for, is for buyers entering the market these four things that we've laid out, should they be fearful of them and I think the COVID portion went away, like you said, the balcony assessment, it's here and happening now and so that's not going to come slap them.

Declan:

Mm-hmm.

Kerri:

And so then we've got those other two pieces. Yeah, not going to come slap them. And so then we've got those other two pieces, which is the insurance can only improve from here.

Declan:

We hope. I mean, let's just leave that as something that's a little bit unknown.

Kerri:

Yeah Well, I don't know we can't control it.

Declan:

We can't control it. I mean, I really I don't know how you can do anything other than just say let's just see what happens.

Kerri:

I really I don't know how you can do anything other than just say let's just see what happens, truly.

Declan:

But if you can afford today.

Kerri:

Yeah, I don't think it's going to get worse.

Declan:

You have to look to the complex that you might be interested in. Yeah, try and establish. You know where are they with their insurance, correct? Have they already absorbed? You know the impact of you know a master policy that's gone way up. How has that been? How has that been handled by the board?

Kerri:

Right.

Declan:

And and have they done their balcony inspection, which they should have, and how has that been handled? I mean, those are questions that an informed buyer can can ask and begin to understand. This is where the opportunity is you got to handle on these things.

Kerri:

Because if you can check those boxes, then you can walk into this situation as an opportunity, because if everyone else is saying no to it, your competition is low and, as your research showed, we've got some really great prices happening right now.

Declan:

Well, we do.

Kerri:

I mean just you know, in most cities.

Declan:

In most cities we do and, if you look around, ask the right questions. I had a family with great success recently by just a two-bedroom one-bath, but they got a value that was lower than it was below the purchase amount from 2007. Yeah, which was pretty interesting to me.

Kerri:

Right.

Declan:

But we had checked all the things, the insurance has been handled and the balcony inspection had been done and they were clear on it.

Kerri:

Below 2007, that's 18 years.

Declan:

Right.

Kerri:

They found the time machine Declan.

Declan:

They did find a time machine. They did. It was pretty impressive and so yeah. So you know a well-informed buyer doing their due diligence, which is not just you know the normal inspections and stuff like that, but understanding these four gut punch, how everything you know fits in and you where they need to understand the condo market and the specific complex and there are opportunities there, right, and for sellers it's just coming to terms with their own feelings around that perceived loss.

Kerri:

And their asset is not appreciating in the way that it should be. Will it in the future? I think that's where the rates come in. I think that's where the rates come in, because when we do see a decline in the rates, then we will see an increase in appreciation, and I think that that actually is the silver lining to look for, both as a seller and as buyer. A buyer, you know there's nowhere to go but up.

Kerri:

Right, you have to get in now, especially if they can buy a 2007 valued property in 2025. That's amazing and as a seller, you know if you're looking for those sell signals. You know when will the right time be.

Declan:

Yeah.

Kerri:

It's going to be when rates go down, because our audience will increase Right. The target audience will then be able to have better affordability and it will then be that stepping stone again towards home ownership and a rental alternative.

Declan:

Yeah, so I do. I agree with you, I think. I think mortgage rates are a big, big deal. It's just understanding whether that means, oh, I'll rent it for a couple of years, or oh, we might be at, you know, six and a half percent for five years, like who knows right? That's a little bit difficult to figure out at this point because of various things that are unknown even to himself. Yeah, truly.

Declan:

You know, so this has been. I mean, I'm really grateful that you came in. We stepped through some of these things here. For me, it's been enormously helpful just in taking a kind of a bird's eye view of the condo market. Where are we? What am I leaving out, though? Because I know you handle a lot of condos, so you're actually having the conversations with people. So what do we not fit in here?

Kerri:

Well, I think, for our audience who are other agents because, yeah, yeah, I think what we're leaving out is that there there is a huge opportunity to help a lot of people that are feeling, uh, lost. That would be our sellers, our condo sellers, yeah, and there's a lot of agents out there that are just saying, no, I'm not doing that right now because it's hard. It is hard. You have to try a lot harder to get that same, you know property sold yes.

Kerri:

And also informing buyers that at face value, those four punches that we talked about, some of those, are not reoccurring. And therefore, a condo in a neighborhood or city that they might not otherwise be able to afford, a single family and might be a good choice for their situation or their family, and so I think that that's the piece that is just being well-informed, being able to be the helper always for the clients, regardless if they move forward now or later or never, you know, as long as that's what is best for their situation and I think having conversations like this and looking at data often is the way to continue to be that resource.

Declan:

Yeah, I do love, though I'm going to challenge any younger sorry, I shouldn't say younger, that's just my default wording but I'm going to challenge any newer licensees.

Kerri:

Yes.

Declan:

To yeah, you know, a down market and we're having a down market we're having the condo market is down. Down markets are where careers can get made. So you know, if you're looking for something that's not a quick silver bullet to a flourishing career but is something that could work over time, I would challenge people who feel it could resonate with them to engage condo complexes yes, market there, provide great service, great and caring information, because it's hard but over time, when it recovers Lord knows it always does Right.

Kerri:

We see it over and over again You'll be there.

Declan:

You sow the seeds now Struggle through the sowing season. The harvest can be bountiful, it just it takes a while. So I do. I do think that there are opportunities in the condo market for people who want to make a career out of this.

Kerri:

Yes, yeah, agreed.

Declan:

Yeah, so, carrie, thanks very much.

Kerri:

Of course, it's always a pleasure.

Declan:

I'm really grateful for your time. I wish you enormous success with your condo clients and all your listings.

Kerri:

Appreciate it.

Declan:

Because it is not easy.

Kerri:

It's not easy.

Declan:

This episode was edited by me, with original music by Chuck Lindo and graphics by Lisa Mazur. The podcast is brought to you by the Home Factor Realtors thehomefactorcom. Catch up on the latest news from the East Bay Market in their weekly sub stack. Published every Saturday Go to thehomefactorcom to subscribe. Published every Saturday Go to thehomefactorcom to subscribe. If you'd like to reach out to me with suggestions for the show and that kind of thing, please text me at 415-446-8591. Catch you on the next podcast, everybody.